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I N THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNI TED STATES- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
ABI GAI L NOEL FI SHER,
Pet i t i oner
:
: No. 11- 345
v. :
UNI VERSI TY OF TEXAS AT AUSTI N,
ET AL.
:
:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
Washi ngt on, D. C.
Wednesday, Oct ober 10, 2012
The above- ent i t l ed mat t er came on f or oral
argument bef ore t he Supreme Cour t of t he Uni t ed Stat es
at 11: 04 a. m.
APPEARANCES:
BERT W. REI N, ESQ. , Washi ngt on, D. C. ; on behal f of
Pet i t i oner .
GREGORY G. GARRE, ESQ. , Washi ngt on, D. C. ; on behal f of
Respondent s.
DONALD B. VERRI LLI , J R. , ESQ. , Sol i ci t or Gener al ,
Depar t ment of J ust i ce, Washi ngt on, D. C. ; f or Uni t ed
St at es, as ami cus cur i ae, suppor t i ng Respondent s.
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C O N T E N T SORAL ARGUMENT OF PAGE
BERT W. REI N, ESQ.
On behal f of t he Pet i t i oner 3
ORAL ARGUMENT OF
GREGORY G. GARRE, ESQ.
On behal f of t he Respondent s 31
ORAL ARGUMENT OF
DONALD B. VERRI LLI , J R. , ESQ
For Uni t ed St at es, as ami cus cur i ae, 59
suppor t i ng t he Respondent s
REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF
BERT W. REI N, ESQ.
On behal f of t he Pet i t i oner 72
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P R O C E E D I N G S
( 11: 04 a. m. )
MR. REI N: Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, and may i t
pl ease t he Cour t - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Wel l , I get t o say
t hat t hi s i s Case Number 11- 345, Fi sher agai nst t he
Uni ver si t y of Texas at Aust i n. And you get t o say - -
ORAL ARGUMENT OF BERT W. REI N
ON BEHALF OF THE PETI TI ONER
MR. REI N: Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, Mr . - -
Gener al Sut er t r ai ned me t oo wel l .
Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, and member s of t he Cour t ,
and may i t pl ease t he Cour t :
The cent r al i ssue her e i s whet her t he
Uni ver si t y of Texas at Aust i n can car r y i t s bur den
appr ovi ng t hat i t s use of r ace as an admi ssi ons- pl us
f act or i n t he consequent deni al of equal t r eat ment ,
whi ch i s t he cent r al mandat e of t he Equal Pr ot ect i on
Cl ause, t o Abi gai l Fi sher met t he t wo t est s of st r i ct
scr ut i ny whi ch ar e appl i cabl e.
Fi r st - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . Rei n, bef or e we get
t o t hat , because t he Cour t i s supposed t o r ai se i t on
i t s own, t he quest i on of - - of st andi ng. The i nj ur y - -
i f t he i nj ur y i s r ej ect i on by t he Uni ver si t y of Texas,3
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and t he answer i s, no mat t er what , t hi s per son woul d not
have been accept ed, t hen how i s t he i nj ur y caused by t he
af f i r mat i ve act i on pr ogr am?
MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Gi nsbur g, t he f i r st
i nj ur y t hat was bef or e the Cour t was t he use of a syst em
whi ch deni ed equal t r eat ment . I t was a Const i t ut i onal
i nj ur y, and par t of t he damage cl ai m was premi sed
di r ect l y on t he Const i t ut i onal i ssue.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: How do you get past
Texas v. Lesage wi t h t hat i nj ury - -
MR. REI N: Lesage - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - whi ch says t hat mer e
use of r ace i s not cogni zabl e i nj ur y suf f i ci ent f or
st andi ng.
MR. REI N: Lesage was l i t i gat ed on i t s
mer i t s, and t he quest i on was whet her Lesage coul d car r y
hi s case when - - on summar y j udgment , when i t was
apparent t hat hi s compl ai nt , whi ch was t hat he was
deni ed access t o t he gr aduat e pr ogr am at t he Uni ver si t y
of Texas, was not sust ai nabl e.
As I sai d - - and t her e ar e sever al f act or s
i n t hi s case t hat ar e qui t e di f f er ent . Fi r st , t her e i s
a Const i t ut i onal i nj ur y as such, and t he Cour t has
r ecogni zed i t .
Second, t he f act pr emi se, she coul d not have4
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been al l owed i n under any ci r cumst ance, was never t est ed
bel ow, wasn' t r ai sed bel ow. I t comes up i n a f oot note
i n - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Can I go t o another
si de? She' s gr aduated.
MR. REI N: Corr ect .
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: She di scl ai med t he
desi r e, af t er her appl i cat i on, t o go t o t he school at
al l . She was per mi t t ed t o appl y f or t he summer pr ogr am
and get i n aut omat i cal l y, and she di dn' t , cor r ect ?
MR. REI N: No, t hat ' s not cor r ect ,
Your Honor . She - - she was not aut omat i cal l y admi t t ed.
She was consi dered f or t he summer progr am and r ej ect ed.
You ar e t al ki ng about t he CAP pr ogr am, where
she coul d have at t ended a di f f er ent uni ver si t y i n t he
Texas syst em, and had she been abl e t o achi eve - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: But she' s graduat ed.
MR. REI N: She has graduat ed.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: I nj unct i ve r el i ef , she' s
not goi ng t o get . So what measur e of damages wi l l she
get or wi l l she be ent i t l ed t o?
MR. REI N: Wel l , t hat i ssue, of cour se, i s
bi f ur cat ed, and we' ve r eser ved t he abi l i t y t o - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: But you have t o cl ai m an
i nj ur y. So what ' s t he i nj ur y - -5
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MR. REI N: Wel l - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - t hat you' r e cl ai mi ng
t hat woul d sust ai n a cl ai m of damages?
MR. REI N: The - - t he deni al of her r i ght t o
equal t r eat ment i s a Const i t ut i onal i nj ur y i n and of
i t sel f , and we had cl ai med cer t ai n damages on t hat .
We - - we st ar t ed the case bef ore i t was cl ear whet her
she woul d or woul dn' t be admi t t ed.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: You st i l l haven' t
answered how Lesage get s away f r om t hat - -
MR. REI N: Wel l , i f t her e' s - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - but i f t here' s a - -
gi ve me anot her - -
MR. REI N: Wel l , I t hi nk - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - damages quest i on.
MR. REI N: On t he - - i f we t hen, on r emand,
were t o asser t damages cont i ngent upon t he f act t hat she
shoul d have been admi t t ed t o UT and was not admi t t ed, we
woul d t hen have t o pr ove t hat , but f or t he use of r ace,
she woul d be admi t t ed. That ' s the t hr ust of Lesage.
Whet her we can pr ove i t or can' t pr ove i t i s
somet hi ng you can' t t el l on t hi s r ecor d. I t ' s mer el y
asser t ed. And I woul d poi nt out t hat Texas sai d bel ow,
t her e was no way t o det er mi ne t hat i ssue wi t hout - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: What damages - -6
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J USTI CE SCALI A: We' ve had cases i nvol vi ng
al l eged di scri mi nat i on i n st at e - - st at e cont r act i ng.
And we haven' t r equi r ed t he person who was di scr i mi nat ed
agai nst because of r ace t o pr ove t hat he woul d have
got t en t he cont r act other wi se, have we?
MR. REI N: No, si r .
J USTI CE SCALI A: I t ' s - - i t ' s been enough
t hat t her e was a deni al of equal pr ot ect i on.
MR. REI N: That i s our cor r ect , and t hat i s
our f i r st pr emi se. And I woul d say t hat t he same i ssue
was rai sed i n Bakke. And i n Bakke, t he cont ent i on was
he coul dn' t have got t en i nt o the medi cal school ;
t her ef or e, he has no case. The Cour t sai d, i n f oot not e
14 t o J ust i ce Powel l ' s opi ni on, t hat ' s a mat t er of
mer i t s; i t i s not a mat t er of st andi ng.
I t hi nk i n - - i n Par ent s I nvol ved, t he same
t ype of cont ent i on was made wi t h r espect t o t he
Loui svi l l e cl ass pl ai nt i f f s, whose son had been admi t t ed
t o the school of hi s choi ce, and t he Cour t sai d damages
are enough t o sust ai n st andi ng. There i s a l i ve damages
cl ai m her e, and I don' t t hi nk t her e i s a quest i on of
st andi ng.
J USTI CE SCALI A: Her cl ai m i s not
necessar i l y t hat she woul d have been - - woul d have been
admi t t ed, but t hat she was deni ed a f ai r chance i n t he7
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admi ssi on l ot t er y. J ust as when a per son i s deni ed
par t i ci pat i on i n t he cont r act i ng l ot t er y, he has
suf f er ed an i nj ur y.
MR. REI N: Yes, J ust i ce Scal i a, I agr ee wi t h
t hat .
J USTI CE BREYER: I f you ar e goi ng t o - - t o
t he mer i t s, I want t o know whether you want us t o - - or
ar e aski ng us t o over r ul e Gr ut t er . Gr ut t er sai d i t
woul d be good l aw f or at l east 25 years. And I know
t hat t i me f l i es, but I t hi nk onl y ni ne of t hose year s
have passed.
( Laught er . )
J USTI CE BREYER: And so, are you? And, i f
so, why over r ul e a case i nto whi ch so much t hought and
ef f or t went and so many peopl e acr oss t he count r y have
depended on?
MR. REI N: J ust i ce Br eyer , we have sai d,
ver y car ef ul l y, we wer e not t r yi ng t o change t he Cour t ' s
di sposi t i on of t he i ssue i n Gr ut t er . Coul d t her e be a
l egi t i mat e - - a compel l i ng i nt er est i n - - i n movi ng - -
i n usi ng r ace t o est abl i sh a di ver se cl ass.
What - - t he pr obl em t hat we' ve encount er ed
t hr oughout t he case i s t her e ar e varyi ng under st andi ngs,
not of t he l egi t i macy of t he i nt er est , but how you get
t her e; i s i t necessary t o use r ace t o achi eve t hat8
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i nt er est ; what does a cr i t i cal mass - -
J USTI CE BREYER: So your quest i on i s
whet her - - your poi nt i s does your case sat i sf y Gr ut t er ?
I s t hat what you' r e ar gui ng?
MR. REI N: We l i t i gat ed i t on t hat basi s,
yes.
J USTI CE BREYER: Wel l , how do you want t o
ar gue i t r i ght now i n t he next t en mi nut es? I ' m
i nt er est ed because I have a ver y shor t t i me t o get my
quest i on out , and I need t o know how you ar e goi ng t o
ar gue i t .
MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Br eyer , our
ar gument i s we can sat i sf y Gr ut t er i f i t ' s pr oper l y
r ead. What we' ve seen - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: May I ask you on t hat
speci f i cal l y, l et ' s t ake away the 10 per cent sol ut i on.
Suppose t he onl y pl an wer e the one t hat i s bef ore the
Cour t now, no 10 per cent . Thi s i s t he excl usi ve way
t hat t he Uni ver si t y i s at t empt i ng t o i ncrease mi nor i t y
enr ol l ment .
Then, i f we had no 10 per cent sol ut i on,
under Gr ut t er , woul d t hi s pl an be accept abl e?
MR. REI N: Wel l , I t hi nk t hat t her e woul d be
f l aws under Gr ut t er , even i f you assumed away somethi ng
t hat can' t be assumed away because i t i s a mat t er of9
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Texas l aw, t hat i s, t here i s a t op 10 percent program,
and t hat - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Wel l , t hen t he - - t he
quest i on i s can you have bot h? But i t seems t o me t hat
t hi s pr ogr am i s cer t ai nl y no mor e aggr essi ve t han t he
one i n - - i n Gr ut t er ; i t ' s mor e - - i n f act , mor e modest .
MR. REI N: Wel l , I don' t agr ee wi t h t hat ,
and l et me expl ai n why.
I n or der t o sat i sf y Gr ut t er , you f i r st have
t o say t hat you ar e not j ust usi ng r ace gr at ui t ousl y,
but i t i s i n t he i nt er est of pr oduci ng a cri t i cal mass
of ot her wi se under r epr esent ed st udent s. And so t o - - t o
be wi t hi n Gr ut t er f r amewor k, t he f i r st quest i on i s,
absent t he use of r ace, woul d we be generat i ng a
cri t i cal mass?
To answer t hat quest i on, you st ar t - - you' ve
got t o exami ne i n cont ext t he so- cal l ed sof t f act or s
t hat ar e i n Gr ut t er - - you know, ar e - - i s t her e an
i sol at i on on campus? Do members of mi nor i t y f eel t hat
t hey cannot speak out ?
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: The one soci al st udi es
t hat t hi s Uni ver si t y di d sai d t hat mi nor i t y st udent s,
over whel mi ngl y, even wi t h t he number s t hey have now, are
f eel i ng i sol at ed. So what do - - why i sn' t t hat even
under your t est ?10
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We can go back t o whet her subst ant i al
evi dence i s adequat e, i s necessary, or not . Why does
t hei r t est f ai l ?
MR. REI N: Wel l , t he survey was - - a r andom
sur vey. I t ' s not r epor t ed i n any syst emat i c way. They
evi dent l y i nt er vi ewed st udent s. And i t was al l about
cl assr oom i sol at i on. I t wasn' t about - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: Was i t - - was i t done
bef or e or af t er t hey announced t he deci si on t o
r ei nst i t ut e r aci al quot as?
MR. REI N: I t was done af t er
Presi dent Faul kner had made t he decl arat i on t hey were
goi ng t o do i t . I t was done bef or e - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: Whi ch came al most
i mmedi at el y af t er our deci si on on Gr ut t er .
MR. REI N: On t he - - I bel i eve, on t he same
day.
J USTI CE SCALI A: And by t he way, do you
t hi nk that Gr ut t er - - t hi s goes t o J ust i ce Br eyer ' s
quest i on - - do you t hi nk t hat Gr ut t er hel d t hat t her e i s
no mor e af f i r mat i ve act i on i n hi gher educat i on af t er
2028?
MR. REI N: No, I don' t .
J USTI CE SCALI A: Was t hat t he hol di ng of
Gr ut t er ?11
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MR. REI N: That was not - - t hat was - -
J USTI CE BREYER: I agree i t mi ght , but I
want t o get t o t he quest i on, see, what I ' m t r yi ng t o
pi npoi nt , because we have such a l i mi t ed t i me, and t o
me, t he one t hi ng I want t o pi npoi nt , si nce you' r e
ar gui ng on t hat t hi s sat i sf i es Gr ut t er , i f pr oper l y
under st ood, as you say t hat . I n l ooki ng up, we have a
t wo- cour t r ul e.
And t wo cour t s have f ound, i t seems t o me,
t hat her e, t her e i s a cer t ai n - - t her e i s no quot a. I t
i s i ndi vi dual i zed. I t i s t i me l i mi t ed. I t was adopt ed
af t er t he consi der at i on of r ace- neut r al means. Each
appl i cant r ecei ves i ndi vi dual consi der at i on, and r ace
di d not become t he pr edomi nant f act or .
So I t ake t hose as a gi ven. And t hen I want
t o know what pr eci sel y i t i s t hat Gr ut t er r equi r ed i n
your opi ni on t hat makes t hi s di f f er ent f r om Gr ut t er , i n
t hat i t was not sat i sf i ed her e? The ones I l i st ed, t wo
court s say are t he same. So maybe t her e' s some ot her s.
MR. REI N: I ' m not sur e we agr ee wi t h t hose
cour t s i n t hei r met hod of anal ysi s.
J USTI CE BREYER: Okay. But we have a r ul e
t hat i f t wo cour t s say i t , we' r e ver y r el uct ant , on
somet hi ng connect ed wi t h f act s, t o over t ur n i t , so - - so
t hat ' s why I ment i on t hat .12
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MR. REI N: And - - par t i cul ar l y i n t he case
of consi der i ng al t er nat i ves t hat have wor ked about as
wel l , I t hi nk t hat ' s a l egal quest i on t hi s Cour t i s f r ee
t o act on.
J USTI CE SCALI A: Okay. Ther e are f act s, and
t her e ar e f act s, ar en' t t her e?
MR. REI N: So i f I mi ght t r y t o answer your
quest i on, t her e was no ef f or t i n t hi s case t o est abl i sh
a - - even a wor ki ng t ar get f or cr i t i cal mass. They
si mpl y i gnor ed i t . They j ust used wor ds, and t hey sai d,
we' ve got t o do mor e. So t hey never answered t he
pr edi cat e quest i on, whi ch Gr ut t er asks: Absent t he use
of r ace, can we gener at e a cr i t i cal mass?
So - - I mean, t hat ' s - - t hat ' s a f l aw we
t hi nk i s i n Gr ut t er . We t hi nk i t ' s necessar y f or t hi s
Cour t t o r est at e t hat pr i nci pl e. Now, whet her t hat - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: That - - t hat ' s a normal
f act t hat we accede t o t wo- cour t hol di ngs on, whet her
t her e i s - - i s or i s not a cr i t i cal mass?
MR. REI N: No. I - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: I t ' s a wei r d ki nd of a
fact .
MR. REI N: And I ' m - - I ' m not sayi ng - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: I t ' s an est i mat i on, i sn' t
i t ? A j udgment ?13
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MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Scal i a, t hat i s
cor r ect. And i n addi t i on, t he cour t s di dn' t f i nd
whet her a cr i t i cal mass - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So coul d you t el l me
what a cr i t i cal mass was? I ' m l ooki ng at t he number of
bl acks i n t he Uni ver si t y of Texas syst em. Pr e- Gr ut t er ,
when t he st at e was i ndi sput abl y st i l l segr egat i ng, i t
was 4 per cent . Today, under t he post - Gr ut t er syst em,
i t ' s 6 per cent . The 2 per cent i ncr ease i s enough f or
you, even t hough t he st at e popul at i on i s at 12 per cent ?
Somehow, t hey' ve r eached a cr i t i cal mass wi t h j ust t he
2 per cent i ncr ease?
MR. REI N: Wel l , we don' t bel i eve t hat
demogr aphi cs ar e t he key to underr epr esent at i on of
cri t i cal mass.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: No - - put t i ng asi de - - I
don' t - - I ' m not goi ng t o quar r el wi t h you t hat , i f
demogr aphi cs al one were bei ng used, I woul d be somewhat
concer ned. But you can' t ser i ousl y suggest t hat
demogr aphi cs ar en' t a f act or t o be l ooked at i n
combi nat i on wi t h how i sol at ed or not i sol at ed your
st udent body i s actual l y r epor t i ng i t sel f t o f eel ?
MR. REI N: Wel l , I t hi nk, i f you st ar t t o
spl i t out subgr oups of mi nor i t i es, you mi st ake, I
t hi nk - - what I t hi nk i s t he pr oper t hr ust of Gr ut t er ,14
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or at l east ought t o be.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: I t mi ght be - - i t mi ght
be i nsul t i ng t o some t o be t hr own i nt o a pot .
J USTI CE SCALI A: Why - - why don' t you
ser i ousl y suggest t hat ? Why don' t you ser i ousl y suggest
t hat demogr aphi c - - t hat t he demogr aphi c makeup of t he
st at e has not hi ng to do wi t h whether somebody f eel s
i sol at ed, t hat i f you' r e i n a stat e t hat i s onl y
1 per cent bl ack t hat doesn' t mean t hat you' r e not
i sol at ed, so l ong as t her e' s 1 per cent i n t he cl ass?
MR. REI N: Cer t ai nl y - - r aci al bal ance - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: I wi sh you woul d t ake t hat
posi t i on because i t seems, t o me, r i ght .
MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Scal i a, r aci al
bal anci ng i s not a per mi ssi bl e i nt er est . And we ar e
const ant l y - - t hi s Cour t has const ant l y hel d not a
per mi ssi bl e i nt er est . And t hat i s somet hi ng we
cer t ai nl y agr ee wi t h.
Tryi ng t o r espond t o J ust i ce Sotomayor
and - - and i n t he f r amewor k of Gr ut t er , what you' r e
l ooki ng at i s, do you - - does t hi s per son, member of a
so- cal l ed under r epr esent ed mi nor i t y - - i t ' s a concept we
don' t necessar i l y accept , but i t ' s Texas' concept - - ar e
t hey i sol at ed? Ar e t hey unabl e t o speak out ?
And I t hi nk we' ve al ways sai d, i f you have a15
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ver y l arge number , as Texas di d i n 2004, when t hey
ost ensi bl y made t he deci si on t o r ei nst i t ut e r ace, t hey
had a 21 per cent admi ss i on per cent age of what t hey
cal l ed the under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es.
They al so had about an 18 per cent admi ss i on
r at i o of Asi an Amer i cans. So on campus, you' r e t al ki ng
about - - about 40 per cent of t he cl ass bei ng mi nor i t i es.
J USTI CE BREYER: Now, but t he t est i s - - t he
t est i s, i n your opi ni on - - I have t o wr i t e t hi s i n t he
opi ni on, you say - - t he pr oper t est of cri t i cal mass i s,
i s t he mi nor i t y i sol at ed, unabl e t o speak out . That ' s
t he t est . And t hat wasn' t i n Gr ut t er or was i n Gr ut t er ?
And i n your opi ni on, i t was i n Gr ut t er ?
MR. REI N: Yes. I t sai d expr essl y i n
Gr ut t er - -
J USTI CE BREYER: I sol at ed. Al l r i ght . And
t he r eason i t was sat i sf i ed t her e and not her e i s?
MR. REI N: I n Gr ut t er , t he Cour t assumed
t hat t he ver y smal l number of admi ssi ons - - mi nor i t y
admi ssi ons, l ooked at as t he whol e - - and i t was l ooked
at as a whol e, onl y as a whol e i n Gr ut t er - - woul d have
yi el ded about 3 or 4 per cent mi nor i t y admi ssi on i n a
cl ass of 350, whi ch means about 12 t o 15 st udent s - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So what ar e you t el l i ng
us i s t he st andar d of cr i t i cal mass? At what poi nt does16
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a di st r i ct cour t or a uni ver si t y know t hat i t doesn' t
have t o do any more t o equal i ze t he desegr egat i on t hat
has happened i n t hat par t i cul ar st ate over decades, t hat
i t ' s now goi ng t o be st uck at a f i xed number and i t has
t o change i t s r ul es. What ' s t hat f i xed number ?
MR. REI N: We - - i t ' s not our bur den t o
est abl i sh t he number . I t was t he bur den of t he
Uni ver si t y of Texas t o det er mi ne whet her - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Wel l , t hey t ol d - - t hey
t ol d t he di st r i ct cour t . They t ook a st udy of st udent s.
They anal yzed t he composi t i on of t hei r cl asses, and t hey
det er mi ned i n t hei r educat i onal j udgment t hat gr eat er
di ver si t y, j ust as we sai d i n Gr ut t er , i s a goal of
t hei r educat i onal pr ogr am and one t hat i ncl udes
di ver si f yi ng cl asses.
So what more pr oof do you r equi r e?
MR. REI N: Wel l , i f you ar e al l owed t o st at e
al l t he gr ounds t hat need t o be pr oved, you wi l l al ways
pr ove t hem, i n al l f ai r ness, J ust i ce Sot omayor .
The quest i on i s, t hey have - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Wel l , but gi ven i t was
i n t he evi dence, what more do you t hi nk t hey needed? I
t hi nk I hear al l you sayi ng i n your br i ef i s t he
number ' s f i xed now, t hey got enough, no more i s
necessar y.17
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MR. REI N: What we' r e sayi ng i n t he br i ef
was they wer e gener at i ng, i n f act , a ver y subst ant i al
number of mi nor i t y presence on campus.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: That ' s enough now.
MR. REI N: And - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: That ' s what you' r e
sayi ng?
MR. REI N: No. And t hat i mmedi at el y t hr ust
upon t hem t he r esponsi bi l i t y, i f t hey want ed t o - - you
know, essent i al l y move away f r om equal t r eatment , t hey
had t o est abl i sh, we have a pur pose, we ar e t r yi ng to
gener at e a cr i t i cal mass of mi nor i t i es t hat ot her wi se
coul d not be achi eved.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Tel l me - - al l r i ght .
Tel l me what about t hei r use of r ace di d not f i t t he
nar r ow t ai l or i ng - - not t he necessi t y pr ong as you' ve
def i ned i t , but t he nar r ow t ai l or i ng t hat Gr ut t er
r equi r ed? How i s r ace used by t hem i n a way t hat
vi ol at ed t he t er ms of Gr ut t er ?
MR. REI N: And f or t hi s pur pose - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Assumi ng t hat t he need
i s t her e. I know you' r e chal l engi ng t he need.
MR. REI N: Wel l , put - - put asi de whet her
t hi s was necessary and whet her i t was an appr opr i ate
l ast r esor t i n - - i n a quest f or di ver si t y and cr i t i cal18
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mass because Gr ut t er ' s not wi t hout l i mi t s. But I ' l l put
t hat asi de, and l et me come di r ect l y t o your quest i on.
Fi r st of al l , i f you t hi nk about nar r ow
t ai l or i ng, you can' t t ai l or t o t he unknown. I f you have
no r ange of eval uat i on, i f you have no under st andi ng of
what cr i t i cal mass means, you can' t t ai l or t o i t .
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So you have t o set a
quot a f or cri t i cal mass?
MR. REI N: No. Ther e' s - - t her e' s a huge
di f f er ence, and i t ' s an i mpor t ant one t hat i s not wel l
put out by t he Uni ver si t y of Texas. Havi ng a r ange, a
vi ew as t o what woul d be an appr opr i ate l evel of
comf or t , cri t i cal mass, as def i ned i n Gr ut t er , al l ows
you to eval uat e wher e you are - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So we won' t cal l i t a
quot a, we' l l cal l i t a goal , somet hi ng Gr ut t er sai d you
shoul dn' t have.
MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Sot omayor , I t hi nk
i t ' s ver y i mpor t ant t o di st i ngui sh bet ween t he oper at i ve
use of t hat r ange. I n ot her wor ds, t hat ' s wher e we ar e,
and we' r e goi ng t o use race unt i l we get t her e, ever y
year , i n consi der at i on of each appl i cat i on, whi ch was a
pr obl em - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Boy, i t sounds awf ul l y
l i ke a quot a t o me, t hat Gr ut t er sai d you shoul d not be19
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doi ng, t hat you shoul dn' t be set t i ng goal s, t hat you
shoul dn' t be set t i ng quot as. You shoul d be set t i ng an
i ndi vi dual i zed assessment of t he appl i cant s.
Tel l me how t hi s syst em doesn' t do t hat .
MR. REI N: Thi s syst em doesn' t - - I mean,
i t ' s not nar r owl y t ai l or ed because i t doesn' t f i t .
There ar e cer t ai n f or ms of Gr ut t er t hat i t f ol l ows.
I t - -
J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , Mr . Rei n, do you
under st and what t he Uni ver si t y of Texas t hi nks i s t he
def i ni t i on of a cri t i cal mass? Because I don' t .
MR. REI N: I - - wel l , i t si mpl y r ei t er at ed
t he l anguage of Gr ut t er . They have no def i ni t i on. They
can' t f i t - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . - - Mr . Rei n, i t seems
t o me t hat , i n your t al ki ng about cr i t i cal mass, you ar e
r el yi ng ent i r el y on t he 10 per cent i s enough. They
don' t - - t hey got mi nor i t i es t hr ough t he 10 per cent , so
t hey don' t need any more. And I t r i ed t o get you
r i gi dl y t o f ocus on - - f or get t he 10 per cent pl an. Thi s
i s t he ent i r e pl an.
MR. REI N: Wel l , l et me t el l you t hat , i f
you l ook out si de t he t op 10, at t he so- cal l ed AI / PAI
admi t s onl y - - f or get t he t op 10 f or a mi nut e, t hey wer e
gener at i ng appr oxi matel y 15 per cent mi nor i t y admi ssi ons20
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out si de t he t op 10, whi ch i s i n - - above what t he t arget
was i n Gr ut t er . So t hi s i s not Gr ut t er on i t s f act s.
I t ' s vast l y di f f erent . Thi s i s a - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Because of t he
10 per cent .
MR. REI N: No, i t was - - I ' m t al ki ng about
onl y t he non- t op 10 per cent admi ssi ons. 15 per cent of
t hose wer e so- cal l ed under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es. Thi s
i s wi t hout t he t op 10. Now, t he t op 10 i s al so a maj or
gener at or of admi ssi ons f or under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es.
J USTI CE KENNEDY: And t hi s was - - and t hi s
was bef ore t he adopt i on of t he pl an.
MR. REI N: That i s cor r ect . Those ar e t he
numbers - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Wel l , I ' m sor r y.
Now, I ' m conf used. I t hought t he 15 per cent f i gur e was
t he one t hat was ar r i ved at wi t h t he 10 per cent pl an.
MR. REI N: No. Wi t h t he 10 percent pl an,
i t ' s much hi gher . I n 2004, i t was 21 per cent f or j ust
Hi spani cs and Af r i can Amer i cans, and t hese ar e t he
cat egor i es t hey used. I f you add i n Asi ans, i t was over
38 per cent .
But I ' m i sol at i ng - - i n response t o J ust i ce
Gi nsbur g, I ' m i sol at i ng t o t he non- t op 10 admi ssi ons.
Those ar e over 15 percent i n t hat year , and t hey aver age21
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ver y cl ose t o t hat over t i me.
So t he - - t he t ot al gener at i on of mi nor i t y
pr esence i s a combi nat i on of t he t wo i n f act , but t he
AI / PAI syst em - - whi ch was adopt ed i n r esponse t o
Hopwood, i t was - - as Texas says, i t was t he f i r st t hi ng
t hey t r i ed t o accommodat e t o thei r l oss of t he abi l i t y
t o use r ace di r ect l y, whi ch came up i n Hopwood.
So t hat was t hei r f i r st r esponse, t o l ook at
a mor e bal anced admi ssi on progr am bet ween Academi c I ndex
and Per sonal Achi evement I ndex. So i t i s not a syst em
whi ch j ust excl udes mi nor i t i es.
J USTI CE KENNEDY: Coul d you comment on
t hi s - - and t hen I hope we can get back t o
J ust i ce Al i t o' s quest i on.
You ar gue t hat t he Uni ver si t y' s
r ace- consci ous admi ssi on pl an i s not necessar y t o
achi eve a di ver se st udent body because i t admi t s so f ew
peopl e - - so f ew mi nor i t i es. And I had t r oubl e wi t h
t hat , readi ng t he br i ef . I sai d, wel l , i f i t ' s so f ew,
t hen what ' s t he pr obl em?
MR. REI N: Wel l , i t ' s a quest i on - -
J USTI CE KENNEDY: Then - - l et ' s assume - -
MR. REI N: Excuse me, J ust i ce Kennedy.
J USTI CE KENNEDY: - - t hat i t r esul t ed i n t he
admi ss i on of many mi nor i t i es. Then you' d come back and22
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say, oh, wel l , t hi s i s - - t hi s shows t hat we - - we wer e
pr obabl y wr ongl y excl uded. I - -
MR. REI N: Wel l - -
J USTI CE KENNEDY: I see an i nconsi st ency
her e.
MR. REI N: Wel l - -
J USTI CE KENNEDY: I s i t - - ar e you sayi ng
t hat you shoul dn' t i mpose t hi s hur t or t hi s i nj ur y,
general l y, f or so l i t t l e benef i t ; i s - - i s that t he
poi nt ?
MR. REI N: Wel l , yes, t hat ' s par t of i t .
The second i s t he quest i on of r easonabl y avai l abl e
al t er nat i ves. I f we t ake Texas at i t s wor d, and i t says
t hey ar e sat i sf i ed, t hey ar e happy goi ng on wi t h the way
t hey appl y race t oday, we t r i ed t o measur e, wel l , what
di f f er ence i s i t maki ng? And coul d you achi eve t he same
t hi ng wi t h a r easonabl y avai l abl e r ace- neut r al
al t er nat i ve?
That ' s a quest i on t hat was asked i n Gr ut t er .
They wer e supposed t o anal yze t hat . They di dn' t l ook at
i t . But i t - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: But i s t he - - t he
r ace- neut r al al t er nat i ve i s t he 10 per cent pl an?
MR. REI N: The r ace- neut r al al t er nat i ve
i ncl udes an ext ensi on of t he 10 per cent pl an because23
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i t ' s a maj or gener at or of mi nor i t y admi ssi ons. And
r i ght now, t hat r anges at 30 per cent .
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: But you say, and t hat ' s
okay because i t ' s - - i t ' s r ace- neut r al . But i s i t
r eal l y? I mean, t he - - t he onl y r eason t hat t hey
i nst i t ut ed t he 10 per cent pl an was t o i ncr ease mi nor i t y
enr ol l ment .
MR. REI N: Wel l , we say - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: And i t - - and t hat - - t he
onl y way i t wor ks i s i f you have heavi l y separ at ed
school s. And wor se t han t hat , I mean, i f you - - i f you
want t o go t o t he Uni ver si t y of Texas under t he
10 per cent pl an, you go t o t he l ow- per f ormi ng school ,
you don' t t ake chal l engi ng cour ses, because t hat ' s how
you' l l get i nt o t he 10 per cent .
So maybe t he Uni ver si t y i s concerned t hat
t hat i s an i nadequat e way t o deal wi t h i t .
MR. REI N: But , J ust i ce Gi nsbur g, l et - - l et
me say t hat - - t hat a l ot of t hat i s specul at i ve. Ther e
i s not hi ng i n t he r ecor d t o suppor t i t . We don' t know.
They' ve never surveyed t he t op 10 admi t s, t he mi nor i t y
admi t s, t o see, wel l , di d you - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: Excuse me. The 10 percent
pl an i s not i mposed by t he Uni ver si t y. I t ' s not t hei r
opt i on - -24
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MR. REI N: Corr ect .
J USTI CE SCALI A: - - t o say t hi s - - t hi s i s
not good f or educat i on because peopl e wi l l t ake easy
cour ses. I t ' s i mposed by st at e l aw, i sn' t i t ?
MR. REI N: Corr ect .
J USTI CE SCALI A: Anybody who i s i n t he t op
10 per cent of any school i n t he st at e get s i nt o the
Uni ver si t y of Texas.
MR. REI N: Yes. And even t he Fi f t h Ci r cui t
sai d you can' t di sr egar d i t s consequences because i t ' s a
mat t er of l aw. I ' m si mpl y sayi ng t hey coul d choose t o
ext end i t beyond wher e i t i s because i t ' s capped t oday
at 75 percent .
But t hat ' s not t he onl y opt i on. That ' s not
t he onl y al t er nat i ve. And - - and cer t ai nl y, one si mpl e
al t er nat i ve i s t hey coul d l ook at t he yi el d, t hat i s,
what per cent age of t he admi t t ed mi nor i t i es are t hey
act ual l y encour agi ng and - - and enr ol l i ng.
J USTI CE BREYER: Or t hey coul d - - t hi s i s
what i s under l yi ng my t hi ng her e. I want t o get you
di r ect l y t o answer i t . I di d l ook up t he f i gur es. And
bef ore Hopwood and the 10 percent pl an, i t l ooked on t he
Af r i can Amer i can si de, t hat i t aver aged about 5 - -
5 per cent per year , r eal l y, pr et t y st eadi l y.
Then af t er Hopwood and 10 per cent , i t went25
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down a l i t t l e bi t , not a l ot , but i t went down t o about
3 and a hal f percent - - 4 percent , maybe. And t hen t hey
i nt r oduced Gr ut t er , and i t ' s back up t o 5 per cent .
MR. REI N: No - -
J USTI CE BREYER: Okay. Now, i s t hat a l ot ?
I s t hat a l i t t l e? Ther e ar e sever al t housand admi ssi ons
of f i cer s i n t he Uni t ed St at es, sever al t housand
uni ver si t i es, and what i s i t we' r e goi ng t o say her e
t hat wasn' t al r eady sai d i n Gr ut t er , t hat i sn' t goi ng t o
t ake hundr eds or t housands of t hese peopl e and have
Feder al j udges di ct at i ng t he pol i cy of admi ssi on of al l
t hese uni ver si t i es? You see why I ' m l ooki ng f or some
cer t ai nt y?
MR. REI N: But , J ust i ce - -
J USTI CE BREYER: I saw what happened, you
saw t he number s.
Sor r y. Go ahead.
MR. REI N: J ust i ce Br eyer , j ust - - I wi l l
answer your quest i on. I ' d l i ke t o r eser ve a l i t t l e
t i me.
J USTI CE BREYER: You can answer i t l at er , i f
you want , or not answer i t at al l , i f you don' t .
( Laught er . )
MR. REI N: No, I am per f ect l y happy t o - - t o
answer your quest i on.26
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I t hi nk that t he i ncrease i n
Af r i can Amer i can admi ssi ons t hat you' r e l ooki ng at was
pr e- Gr ut t er . I t - - i t was gener at ed bef or e 2004.
J USTI CE BREYER: Uh- huh.
MR. REI N: So I j ust want t o make cl ear t he
r ecor d doesn' t depend - - t hey don' t depend on race t o do
i t . I t ' s mi ni mal change wi t h t he use of r ace. And
t hat ' s why we say t her e i s an al t er nat i ve, whi ch woul d
ser ve i t about as wel l i n i ncreasi ng yi el d or , i ndeed,
i n r ewei ght i ng t he - - t he PAI , whi ch i s a cri t i cal
el ement her e, so t hat you put more emphasi s on t he
soci oeconomi c f act or s and l ess emphasi s on t he essays,
whi ch are an academi c measur e wi t hi n t he PAI .
So t her e ar e l ot s t hat t hey coul d do - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So now, we' r e goi ng t o
t el l t he uni ver si t i es how t o r un and how t o wei gh
qual i f i cat i ons, t oo?
MR. REI N: I t ' s not t he j ob of t he Cour t t o
t el l t hem how t o do i t . I t ' s t hei r j ob t o exami ne t he
al t er nat i ves avai l abl e t o them and see i f t hey coul dn' t
achi eve t he same t hi ng.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Coul d you t el l me,
agai n, how r ace and t hei r use of r ace overwhel ms t hose
ot her f actor s i n t hei r syst em as i t ' s cr eat ed?
MR. REI N: I - - t he quest i on i s not whet her27
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i t over whel ms them. They' r e - - but t hey - - t hey say - -
t hey admi t , i t i s ef f ect i ve. Ther e ar e admi ssi ons t hat
woul d not have t aken pl ace, but f or ; somebody el se woul d
have had t hat pl ace, but f or t he use of r ace.
And I t hi nk, J ust i ce Kennedy, j ust t o answer
your quest i on f ul l y, you have to anal yze race- neut r al
al t er nat i ves. And i f you l ook at Par ent s I nvol ved,
t hat - - t hat was t he cri t i cal quest i on. The - - t he
out comes wer e so smal l , t hat t her e wer e r eadi l y
avai l abl e al t er nat i ves.
J USTI CE KENNEDY: Wel l , per haps you coul d
summar i ze by sayi ng - - by t el l i ng us, f r om your poi nt of
vi ew, t hi s pl an f ai l s st r i ct scrut i ny on one or t wo or
bot h l evel s, A, because t he obj ect i ve i s i nappr opr i at e
or i l l - def i ned, and, B, because of t he i mpl ement at i on i s
def ect i ve. Whi ch or bot h of t hose ar e you ar gui ng?
MR. REI N: We have ar gued bot h, and we
cont i nue t o ar gue bot h. I t i s not a necessary - -
J USTI CE KENNEDY: And i n what r espect does
t hi s pl an f ai l str i ct scr ut i ny under ei t her of t hose - -
under bot h of t hose cat egor i es?
MR. REI N: Okay. Under t he category - - t he
f i r st cat egor y, was i t a necessar y means of pur sui ng a
compel l i ng i nt er est , we don' t bel i eve t hey' ve shown any
necessi t y f or doi ng what t hey wer e doi ng. And28
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cer t ai nl y, i t - - r ace shoul d have been a l ast r esor t .
I t was a f i r st resor t . That ' s, i n a nut shel l , t hat
pr ong of i t . And i n or der - - and t hey f ai l ed i n ever y
r espect .
I f you go t o nar r ow t ai l or i ng, what we ar e
sayi ng i s t hey di dn' t consi der al t er nat i ves, and t hei r
t r eat ment of , as we have poi nt ed out , Asi an Amer i cans
and Hi spani cs makes a - - an i ncompr ehensi bl e
di st i nct i on. They say, we don' t wor r y about Asi ans,
t her e ar e a l ot of Asi ans, i t ' s a demogr aphi c measur e,
whi ch i s a f orbi dden measur e.
They ar e i n excess of t hei r shar e of t he
Texas popul at i on. But i f you ar e t r yi ng t o f i nd
i ndi vi dual comf or t l evel s, i f you ar e br eaki ng i t down
bet ween Af r i can Amer i cans and - - and Hi spani cs, t he - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Counsel , you ar e t he one
who, i n your br i ef , has assumed t hat t hey ar e val ui ng
di f f er ent r aces di f f er ent l y. But Asi an number s have
gone up, under however t hey have st r uct ur ed t hi s PAI .
And as I under st and t hei r posi t i on, r ace i s bal anced
agai nst ot her i ssues l i ke soci oeconomi cs, t he st r engt h
of t he cl asses peopl e t ook. I t ' s never a st andal one.
So even a whi t e st udent , I presume, who goes
t o an - - an ent i r el y bl ack or an ent i r el y Lat i no school ,
who becomes cl ass presi dent , woul d get some poi nt s29
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because he has or she has pr oven t hat t hey f ost er or can
deal i n a di ver se envi r onment . That ' s how I under st ood
t hei r pl an, t hat i t ' s not j ust gi vi ng you a pl us because
of r ace. I t ' s combi ni ng t hat wi t h ot her f act or s.
MR. REI N: Ther e i s a pl us because of r ace.
There ar e many ot her f act or s i n t he deci si on. And mi ght
I say t hat t hi s - - t he whi t e st udent pr esi dent of t he
cl ass i n an et hni cal l y di f f er ent school i s a measur e of
l eader shi p.
Leader shi p i s an i ndependent f act or i n t he
PAI . I t i sn' t - - he i s not get t i ng t hat poi nt because
he i s - - because of hi s r ace; he' s get t i ng t hat poi nt
because of hi s l eader shi p. That r ace- neut r al cri t er i a
coul d work f or anybody.
So r ace i s an i ndependent add- on. I t - - i t
i s somet hi ng t hey can use t o boost t he PAI score, t he
PAS el ement i n any way they l i ke, because t hey say t hey
cont ext ual i ze i t . And we say i t ' s not necessar y, i t ' s
not nar r owl y t ai l or ed, i t i gnor es avai l abl e
al t er nat i ves, i t t r eat s - - gi ves di spar at e t r eat ment t o
Asi an Amer i cans because t hey ar e mi nor i t i es as wel l .
And to t he ext ent i t depends on the
cl assr oom f act or , t her e i s si mpl y no way t o r el at e or
f i t what t hey ar e doi ng t o t he sol ut i on of t he pr obl em
whi ch t hey used as a maj or f oundat i on of t hei r pr oposal ,30
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whi ch i s t he nondi ver se cl assr oom. That - - cert ai nl y,
t her e i s j ust no cor r espondence t her e.
I see my t i me i s up, Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce.
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: We wi l l af f ord you
r ebut t al t i me, si nce our quest i ons have pr event ed you
f rom reservi ng i t .
MR. REI N: Thank you.
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Mr . Gar r e.
ORAL ARGUMENT OF GREGORY G. GARRE
ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS
MR. GARRE: Thank you, Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce,
and may i t pl ease t he Cour t :
For t wo over r i di ng r easons, t he - - t he
admi ssi ons pl an bef or e you i s Const i t ut i onal under t hi s
Cour t ' s pr ecedent s. Fi r st , i t i s i ndi st i ngui shabl e i n
t er ms of how i t oper at es i n t aki ng r ace i nt o account as
onl y one modest f act or among many f or t he i ndi vi dual i zed
consi der at i ons of appl i cant s i n t hei r t ot al i t y f r om
pl ans t hat t hi s Cour t has uphel d i n Gr ut t er and pl ans
t hat t hi s Cour t appr oved i n Bakke and the Harvar d
pl an - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: I - - I put t hat i n t he
nar r ow t ai l or i ng cat egor y, t hat i t i s nar r owl y t ai l or ed
t he way Gr ut t er di d - - sai d, not t he necessi t y pr ong and
not t he need pr ong - - not t he necessi t y pr ong. I t hi nk31
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most of hi s ar gument has been cent ered on t hat , so - -
MR. GARRE: That ' s r i ght . And so t hat ' s t he
second poi nt I was goi ng t o make, whi ch i s t hat t he
hol i st i c admi ssi ons pr ocess at i ssue her e i s a necessary
count er part t o t he st ate' s t op 10 per cent Law and works
t o syst emat i c - - t o of f set t he syst emat i c dr awbacks of
t hat l aw i n achi evi ng an i nt er est t hat i s i ndi sput abl y
compel l i ng, t he uni ver si t y' s i nt er est i n assembl i ng a
br oadl y di ver se st udent body.
I n t he i nt er est - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Counsel , bef ore - - I
need t o f i gur e out exact l y what t hese number s mean.
Shoul d someone who i s one- quar t er Hi spani c check t he
Hi spani c box or some di f f er ent box?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t here i s a
mul t i r aci al box. St udent s check boxes based on t hei r
own det ermi nat i on. Now, t hi s i s t r ue under t he Common
Appl i cat i on - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Wel l , I suppose a
per son who i s one- quar t er per cent Hi spani c, hi s own
det er mi nat i on, woul d be, I ' m one- quar t er per cent
Hi spani c.
MR. GARRE: Then t hey woul d check t hat box,
Your Honor , as i s t r ue - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: They woul d check32
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t hat box. What about one- ei ght h?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t hat was - - t hey - -
t hey woul d make t hat sel f - det er mi nat i on, Your Honor .
I f - - i f anyone, i n any par t of t he appl i cat i on,
vi ol at ed some honor code t hen t hat coul d come out - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Woul d i t vi ol at e t he
honor code f or someone who i s one- ei ght h Hi spani c and
says, I i dent i f y as Hi spani c, t o check t he Hi spani c box?
MR. GARRE: I don' t t hi nk - - I don' t t hi nk
i t woul d, Your Honor . I don' t t hi nk t hat t hat i ssue
woul d be any di f f er ent t han t he pl an uphel d i n Gr ut t er
or t he Har var d pl an or i n Bakke - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: You don' t check, i n
any way, t he r aci al i dent i f i cat i on?
MR. GARRE: We do not , Your Honor , and no
col l ege i n Amer i ca, t he I vy Leagues, t he Li t t l e I vy
Leagues, t hat I ' m awar e of .
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So how do you know
you have 15 per cent Af r i can Amer i can - - Hi spani c or
15 per cent mi nor i t y?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t he same way t hat
t hat det er mi nat i on i s made i n any ot her si t uat i on, I ' m
awar e of , wher e r ace i s t aken i nt o account - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: You say, " t he same
way. " What i s t hat way?33
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MR. GARRE: Wel l , t he per sons sel f - i dent i f y
on t hat f orm.
J USTI CE SCALI A: Do t hey have t o
sel f - i dent i f y?
MR. GARRE: They do not , Your Honor . Ever y
year peopl e do not , and many of t hose appl i cant s ar e
admi t t ed.
J USTI CE SCALI A: And how do t hey deci de?
You know, i t ' s - - t hey want not j ust a cr i t i cal mass i n
t he school at l ar ge, but cl ass by cl ass? How do t hey
f i gur e out t hat par t i cul ar cl asses don' t have enough?
What - - do they - - somebody wal ks i n t he r oom and l ooks
t hem over t o see who l ooks - - who l ooks Asi an, who l ooks
bl ack, who l ooks Hi spani c? I s t hat - - i s t hat how i t ' s
done?
MR. GARRE: No, Your Honor , and l et me t r y
t o be cl ear on t hi s. The uni ver si t y has never asser t ed
a compel l i ng i nt er est i n any speci f i c di ver si t y i n ever y
si ngl e cl assr oom. I t has si mpl y l ooked t o cl assr oom
di ver si t y as one di mensi on of st udent body di ver si t y.
And t hat - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: I don' t know what you ar e
t al ki ng about . I mean, i t i s ei t her a f actor t hat i s
val i dl y i n t hi s case or i t i sn' t . Now, do t hey l ook t o
i ndi vi dual cl assr oom di ver si t y or not ? And i f so, how34
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do t hey deci de when cl asses are di ver se?
MR. GARRE: Thi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er , Your
Honor - - and maybe t he most i mpor t ant t hi ng t hat was
sai d dur i ng t he f i r st 30 mi nut es i s, when gi ven an
oppor t uni t y to chal l enge Gr ut t er , I under st ood my f r i end
not t o ask t hi s Cour t t o over r ul e i t .
Thi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er r ecogni zed t he obvi ous
f act t hat t he cl assr oom i s one of t he most i mpor t ant
envi r onment s wher e t he educat i onal benef i t s of di ver si t y
ar e r eal i zed. And so t he Uni ver si t y of Texas, i n
det er mi ni ng whet her or not i t had r eached a cr i t i cal
mass, l ooked t o the cl assr oom, al ong wi t h - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: Fi ne. I ' m aski ng how. How
di d t hey l ook t o t he cl assr oom?
MR. GARRE: Wel l , Your Honor - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: Di d t hey - - di d t hey
r equi r e everybody to check a box or t hey have somebody
f i gur e out , oh, t hi s per son l ooks 1/ 32nd Hi spani c, and
t hat ' s enough?
MR. GARRE: They di d a st udy, Your Honor ,
t hat t ook i nt o account t he same consi der at i ons t hat t hey
di d i n di scussi ng t he enr ol l ment cat egor i es - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: What ki nd of a st udy? What
ki nd of a st udy?
MR. GARRE: Wel l , Your Honor , i t ' s i n t he35
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Suppl ement al J oi nt Appendi x.
J USTI CE SCALI A: Yes. I t doesn' t expl ai n t o
me how t hey go about , cl assr oom by cl assr oom, deci di ng
how many mi nor i t i es t here ar e.
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t her e are st udent
l i st s i n each cl assr oom. The st udent l i st s - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: There ar e st udent
l i st s i n each cl assr oom t hat - - t hat have r ace
i dent i f i ed wi t h t he st udent s?
MR. GARRE: No, no, Your Honor . Of cour se,
each cl assr oom - - t he uni ver si t y knows whi ch st udent s
are t aki ng i t s cl asses. And one can t hen, i f you want
t o gauge di ver si t y i n t he cl assr ooms, go back - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Oh, you go back t o
what t hey checked on t he f or m?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t hi s was par t of
a - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: That ' s a yes or no
quest i on. You go back t o what t hey checked on t hei r
appl i cat i on f or m i n deci di ng whet her Economi cs 201 has a
suf f i ci ent number of Af r i can Amer i cans or Hi spani cs?
MR. GARRE: That i s i nf or mat i on t hat i s
avai l abl e t o t he uni ver si t y, Your Honor , t he r ace of
st udent s, i f t hey' ve checked i t on t he appl i cat i on. But
I do want t o be cl ear on t hi s cl assr oom di ver si t y st udy.36
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Thi s was onl y one of many i nf or mat i on poi nt s t hat t he
uni ver si t y l ooked t o.
J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , on t he cl assr oom
di ver si t y, how does t he non- t op 10 per cent par t of t he
pl an f ur t her cl assr oom di ver si t y? My under st andi ng i s
t hat t he uni ver si t y had over 5, 000 cl asses t hat
qual i f i ed as smal l , and t he t ot al number of Af r i can
Amer i cans and Hi spani cs who were admi t t ed under t he par t
of t he pl an t hat i s chal l enged was j ust a l i t t l e over
200.
So how does t hat - - how does t hat - - how can
t hat possi bl y do mor e t han a t i ny, t i ny amount t o
i ncrease cl assr oom di ver si t y?
MR. GARRE: Wel l , Your Honor , f i r st , I t hi nk
t hat 200 number i s er r oneous. Ther e have been many mor e
mi nor i t y candi dat es - -
J USTI CE ALI TO: Per cl ass?
MR. GARRE: No, not - - not on a per - cl ass
basi s.
J USTI CE ALI TO: I ndi vi dual s i n cl ass.
MR. GARRE: I t hi nk i n l ooki ng at t he
cl assr ooms, Your Honor , what t he uni ver si t y f ound was
shocki ng i sol at i on agai nst - -
J USTI CE ALI TO: How many - - how many non- t op
10 percent members of t he t wo mi nor i t i es at i ssue here37
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are admi t t ed i n each cl ass?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , we di dn' t l ook
speci f i cal l y at t hat det er mi nat i on. What we di d - - i n
ot her wor ds, t o t r y t o f i nd whet her t her e wer e hol i st i c
admi t s or percent age admi t s, we di d concl ude i n 2004 - -
and, agai n, t hi s was bef or e - - we di d t he cl assr oom
st udy bef ore t he pl an at i ssue was adopt ed, and at t hat
t i me, t her e wer e no hol i st i c admi t s t aki ng r ace i nt o
account .
And what we concl uded was t hat we si mpl y - -
i f you l ooked at Af r i can Amer i cans, f or exampl e, i n
90 per cent of t he cl asses of t he most common
par t i ci pat or y si ze - -
J USTI CE ALI TO: I r eal l y don' t underst and
your answer . You know t he t otal number of , l et ' s say,
Af r i can Amer i cans i n an ent er i ng cl ass, r i ght ? Yes or
no?
MR. GARRE: Yes, Your Honor .
J USTI CE ALI TO: And you know t he t ot al
number who were admi t t ed under t he top 10 percent pl an?
MR. GARRE: We do, Your Honor . But , agai n,
at t he t i me - -
J USTI CE ALI TO: I f you subt r act A f r om B,
you' l l get C, r i ght ?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , at t he t i me - -38
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J USTI CE ALI TO: And what i s t he val ue of C
per cl ass?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , I don' t know t he
answer t o t hat quest i on, and l et me t r y t o expl ai n why
t he uni ver si t y di dn' t l ook speci f i cal l y at - - t o t hat .
Because at t he t i me t hat t he cl assr oom di ver si t y st udy
was conduct ed, i t was bef or e t he hol i st i c admi ssi ons
pr ocess at i ssue here was adopt ed i n 2003- 2004.
And so t hat determi nat i on woul dn' t have been
as i mpor t ant as j ust f i ndi ng out ar e Af r i can Amer i cans
or Hi spani cs, under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es, pr esent at
t he uni ver si t y i n such number s t hat we ar e not
exper i enci ng r aci al - - r aci al i sol at i on i n t he
cl assr oom.
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: What i s t hat number ?
What i s t he cr i t i cal mass of Af r i can Amer i cans and
Hi spani cs at t he uni ver si t y t hat you ar e wor ki ng t oward?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , we don' t have one.
And - - and t hi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So how ar e we
supposed t o t el l whet her t hi s pl an i s nar r owl y t ai l or ed
t o t hat goal ?
MR. GARRE: To l ook t o t he same cr i t er i a of
t hi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er . Thi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er
speci f i cal l y rej ect ed t he not i on t hat you coul d come up39
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wi t h a f i xed per cent age. Now - -
J USTI CE ALI TO: Now, does cr i t i cal mass var y
f r om - - f r om gr oup t o gr oup? Does i t var y f r om st at e t o
state?
MR. GARRE: I t cer t ai nl y i s cont ext ual . I
t hi nk i t coul d var y, Your Honor . I t hi nk - - l et me
f i r st say t hat my f r i ends have - - t hr oughout t hi s
l i t i gat i on, not i n t hi s Cour t , asser t ed 20 per cent as a
cr i t i cal mass, and t hat ' s l umpi ng t oget her di f f er ent
mi nor i t y gr oups.
J USTI CE ALI TO: No. But coul d you answer my
quest i on? What does t he Uni ver si t y of Texas - - t he
Uni ver si t y of Texas t hi nk about t hose quest i ons?
MR. GARRE: We - -
J USTI CE ALI TO: I s t he cr i t i cal mass f or t he
Uni ver si t y of Texas dependent on t he br eakdown of t he
popul at i on of Texas?
MR. GARRE: No, i t ' s not at al l .
J USTI CE ALI TO: I t ' s not .
MR. GARRE: I t ' s not at al l . I t ' s l ooki ng
t o - - t o t he educat i onal benef i t s of di ver si t y on
campus, and I t hi nk we act ual l y agree on what t hat means
and what Gr ut t er sai d i t meant , i n t er ms of - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . Gar r e, coul d you
expl ai n - - I t hi nk you wer e t r yi ng t o bef or e - - what40
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seems t o me t he cr i t i cal quest i on i n t hi s case: Why
di dn' t t he 10 per cent sol ut i on suf f i ce? Ther e wer e a
subst ant i al number of mi nor i t y member s admi t t ed as a
r esul t of t he 10 per cent sol ut i on. Why wasn' t t hat
enough t o achi eve di ver si t y?
MR. GARRE: Wel l , l et me make a coupl e of
poi nt s, Your Honor . Fi r st , i f you j ust l ooked at t he
number s - - we don' t t hi nk i t ' s t he number s, but i f you
l ooked at t he number s, af t er 7 year s, r aci al di ver si t y
among t hese gr oups at t he Uni ver si t y of Texas had
r emai ned st agnant or worse. 2002, Af r i can Amer i can
enr ol l ment had act ual l y dr opped t o 3 per cent . That ' s
one par t of i t .
The ot her par t of i t i s, i f you l ook at t he
admi ssi ons under t he top 10 per cent pl an, t aki ng t he - -
t he t op 10 per cent of a r aci al l y i dent i f i abl e hi gh
school may get you di ver si t y t hat l ooks okay on paper ,
but i t doesn' t guar ant ee you di ver si t y t hat pr oduces
educat i onal benef i t s on campus. And t hat ' s one of t he
consi der at i ons t hat t he uni ver si t y t ook i nt o account as
wel l .
J USTI CE SCALI A: I don' t under st and t hat .
Why? Why - - why doesn' t i t ?
MR. GARRE: Because, Your Honor , as i s t r ue
f or any gr oup - - and t he Har var d pl an t hat t hi s Cour t41
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appr oved i n Bakke speci f i cal l y r ecogni zed t hi s, you
woul d want r epr esent at i ves and di f f er ent vi ewpoi nt s f r om
i ndi vi dual s wi t hi n the same - - t he same raci al gr oup,
j ust as you woul d f r om i ndi vi dual s out si de of t hat .
J USTI CE SCALI A: What ki nd of vi ewpoi nt s? I
mean, ar e t hey pol i t i cal vi ewpoi nt s?
MR. GARRE: Wel l , anyone' s exper i ences,
wher e t hey gr ew up, t he si t uat i ons t hat t hey - - t hat
t hey exper i ence i n t hei r l i ves ar e goi ng t o af f ect t hei r
vi ewpoi nt s.
J USTI CE SCALI A: But t hi s has not hi ng t o do
wi t h, wi t h r aci al di ver si t y. I mean, you' r e t al ki ng
about somethi ng el se.
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , I t hi nk i t di r ect l y
i mpact s t he educat i onal benef i t s of di ver si t y i n t hi s
sense, t hat t he mi nor i t y candi date who has shown t hat - -
t hat he or she has succeeded i n an i nt egr ated
envi r onment , has shown l eadershi p, communi t y servi ce,
t he ot her f act or s t hat we l ooked at i n hol i st i c r evi ew,
i s pr eci sel y t he ki nd of candi dat e t hat ' s goi ng t o
come - - come on campus, hel p t o break down raci al
bar r i er s, wor k acr oss raci al l i nes, di spel - -
st er eot ypes - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: Al so, t he ki nd t hat i s
l i kel y t o be i ncl uded wi t hi n t he 10 per cent r ul e. And,42
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i nci dent al l y, when - - when was t he 10 per cent r ul e
adopt ed?
MR. GARRE: 1998, Your Honor .
But wi t h r espect t o your - - your f act ual
poi nt , t hat ' s absol ut el y wr ong, Your Honor . I f you l ook
at t he admi ss i ons dat a that we ci t e on page 34 of our
br i ef , i t shows t he br eakdown of appl i cant s under t he
hol i st i c pl an and t he per cent age pl an.
And I don' t t hi nk i t ' s been ser i ousl y
di sput ed i n t hi s - - t hi s case t o t hi s poi nt t hat ,
al t hough the per cent age pl an cer t ai nl y hel ps wi t h
mi nor i t y admi ssi ons, by and l ar ge, t he - - t he mi nor i t i es
who are admi t t ed t end t o come f r om segregat ed,
r aci al l y- i dent i f i abl e school s .
J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , I t hought t hat t he
whol e pur pose of af f i r mat i ve act i on was t o hel p st udent s
who come f r om under pr i vi l eged backgr ounds, but you make
a ver y di f f er ent ar gument t hat I don' t t hi nk I ' ve ever
seen bef ore.
The top 10 per cent pl an admi t s l ot s of
Af r i can Amer i cans - - l ot s of Hi spani cs and a f ai r number
of Af r i can Amer i cans. But you say, wel l , i t ' s - - i t ' s
f aul t y because i t doesn' t admi t enough Af r i can Amer i cans
and Hi spani cs who come f r om pr i vi l eged backgr ounds. And
you speci f i cal l y have the exampl e of t he chi l d of43
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successf ul pr of essi onal s i n Dal l as.
Now, t hat ' s - - t hat ' s your ar gument ? I f you
have - - you have an appl i cant whose par ent s are - - l et ' s
say t hey' r e - - one of t hem i s a par t ner i n your l aw f i r m
i n Texas, anot her one i s a par t - - i s anot her cor por at e
l awyer . They have i ncome t hat put s t hem i n t he t op
1 per cent of ear ner s i n t he count r y, and t hey have - -
par ent s both have graduat e degrees.
They deser ve a l eg- up agai nst , l et ' s say, an
Asi an or a whi t e appl i cant whose parent s are absol ut el y
aver age i n t erms of educat i on and i ncome?
MR. GARRE: No, Your Honor . And l et me - -
l et me answer t he quest i on. Fi r st of al l , t he exampl e
comes al most word f or word f r om t he Harvar d pl an t hat
t hi s Cour t appr oved i n Gr ut t er and t hat J ust i ce Powel l
hel d out i n Bakke.
J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , how can t he answer t o
t hat quest i on be no, because bei ng an Af r i can Amer i can
or bei ng a Hi spani c i s a pl us f act or .
MR. GARRE: Because, Your Honor , our poi nt
i s, i s t hat we want mi nor i t i es f r om di f f er ent
backgr ounds. We go out of our way t o r ecr ui t mi nor i t i es
f r om di sadvant aged backgr ounds.
J USTI CE KENNEDY: So what you' r e sayi ng i s
t hat what count s i s r ace above al l ?44
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backgr ound or perspect i ve, you woul d want peopl e f r om
di f f er ent per spect i ves.
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Counsel - -
MR. GARRE: And t hat ' s - - t hat ' s t he
i nt er est s t hat we' r e di scussi ng her e. I t ' s t he
i nt er est s t hat - - t hat t he Har var d pl an speci f i cal l y
adopt s and l ays out - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I under st and my j ob,
under our pr ecedent s, t o det er mi ne i f your use of r ace
i s nar r owl y t ai l or ed t o a compel l i ng i nt er est . The
compel l i ng i nt er est you i dent i f y i s at t ai ni ng a cri t i cal
mass of mi nor i t y st udent s at t he Uni ver si t y of Texas,
but you won' t t el l me what t he cr i t i cal mass i s. How am
I supposed t o do t he j ob t hat our pr ecedent s say I
shoul d do?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , what - - what t hi s
Cour t ' s pr ecedent s say i s a cr i t i cal mass i s an
envi r onment i n whi ch st udent s of under r epr esent ed - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I know what you say,
but when wi l l we know t hat you' ve r eached a cr i t i cal
mass?
MR. GARRE: Wel l - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Gr ut t er sai d t here
has t o be a l ogi cal end poi nt t o your use of r ace. What
i s t he l ogi cal end poi nt ? When wi l l I know t hat you' ve46
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r eached a cr i t i cal mass?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t hi s quest i on, of
cour se, i mpl i cat es Gr ut t er i t sel f . And, agai n, I
under st ood my f r i end not t o chal l enge t hat . They
haven' t chal l enged t hat di ver si t y i s a compel l i ng
i nt erest at al l .
What - - what we l ook t o, and we t hi nk t hat
cour t s can r evi ew t hi s det er mi nat i on, one, we l ook t o
f eedback di r ect l y f r om st udent s about r aci al i sol at i on
t hat t hey exper i ence. Do t hey f eel l i ke spokesper sons
f or t hei r r ace.
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So, what , you
conduct a sur vey and ask st udent s i f t hey f eel r aci al l y
i sol at ed?
MR. GARRE: That ' s one of t he t hi ngs we
l ooked at .
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: And t hat ' s t he basi s
f or our Const i t ut i onal det er mi nat i on?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t hat ' s one of t he
t hi ngs t hat we l ooked at .
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Okay. What ar e t he
ot her s?
MR. GARRE: Anot her i s t hat we di d l ook t o
enr ol l ment dat a, whi ch showed, f or exampl e, among
Af r i can Amer i cans, t hat Af r i can Amer i can enr ol l ment at47
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t he Uni ver si t y of Texas dropped t o 3 per cent i n 2002
under t he percent age pl an.
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: At what l evel wi l l
i t sat i sf y t he cr i t i cal mass?
MR. GARRE: Wel l , I t hi nk we al l agr ee t hat
3 per cent i s not a cri t i cal mass. I t ' s wel l beyond
t hat .
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Yes, but at what
l evel wi l l i t sat i sf y t he r equi r ement of cri t i cal mass?
MR. GARRE: When we have an envi r onment i n
whi ch Af r i can Amer i cans do not - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: When - - how am I
supposed t o deci de whet her you have an envi r onment
wi t hi n par t i cul ar mi nor i t i es who don' t f eel i sol at ed?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , par t of t hi s i s a - -
i s a j udgment t hat t he admi n - - t he educators are goi ng
t o make, but you woul d l ook t o t he same cr i t er i a - -
CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So, I see - - when
you t el l me, t hat ' s good enough.
MR. GARRE: No, Your Honor , not at al l . You
woul d l ook t o t he cr i t er i a t hat we l ooked at , t he
enr ol l ment dat a, t he f eedback f r om t he st udent s. We
al so t ook i nt o account di ver si t y i n t he cl assr oom. We
t ook i nt o account t he r aci al cl i mat e on campus.
J USTI CE ALI TO: But woul d 3 percent be48
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enough i n New Mexi co, your border i ng st at e, where the
Af r i can Amer i can popul at i on i s around 2 per cent ?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , I don' t t hi nk i t
woul d. I mean, our concept t o cr i t i cal mass i sn' t t i ed
t o demogr aphi c. I t ' s undi sput ed i n t hi s case t hat we
are not pur sui ng any demogr aphi c goal . That ' s on page
138 of t he J oi nt Appendi x.
Al l of - - I t hi nk many key f act s ar e
undi sput ed her e. I t ' s undi sput ed t hat r ace i s onl y a
modest f act or . I t ' s undi sput ed t hat we' r e t aki ng r ace
i nt o account onl y to consi der i ndi vi dual s i n t hei r
t ot al i t y.
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Mr . Gar r e, I t hi nk t hat
t he i ssue t hat my col l eagues are aski ng i s, at what
poi nt and when do we st op def er r i ng to t he Uni ver si t y' s
j udgment t hat r ace i s st i l l necessar y? That ' s t he
bot t om l i ne of t hi s case. And you' r e sayi ng, and I
t hi nk r i ght l y because of our cases, t hat you can' t set a
quota, because t hat ' s what our cases say you can' t do.
So i f we' r e not goi ng t o set a quot a, what
do you t hi nk i s t he st andard we appl y t o make a
j udgment?
MR. GARRE: I t hi nk t he st andard you woul d
appl y i s t he one set f or t h i n Gr ut t er , and i t comes f r om
J ust i ce Powel l ' s opi ni on i n Bakke, t hat you woul d l ook49
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t o whether or not t he Uni ver si t y reached an envi r onment
i n whi ch member s of under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es, Af r i can
Amer i cans and Hi spani cs, do not f eel l i ke spokesper sons
f or t hei r r ace, members - - an envi r onment where
cr oss- r aci al under st andi ng i s pr omoted, an envi r onment
wher e t he benef i t - - educat i onal benef i t s of di ver si t y
ar e r eal i zed.
And t he r eason why t he Uni ver si t y of Texas
concl uded t hat t hat envi r onment was not met here, i t
l ai d out i n sever al di f f er ent i nf or mat i on poi nt s t hat
t hi s Cour t can r evi ew - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: But t hat hol ds f or onl y - -
onl y another what , 16 years, r i ght ? Si xt een more years,
and you' r e goi ng t o cal l i t al l of f .
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , we don' t r ead
Gr ut t er as est abl i shi ng t hat ki nd of t i me cl ock. We ar e
l ooki ng at t hi s - -
J USTI CE SCALI A: But you' r e appeal i ng t o
Gr ut t er , and t hat ' s what i t sai d.
MR. GARRE: Wel l , Your Honor , Gr ut t er i s
t hi s Cour t ' s pr ecedence. We' r e gui ded by i t her e. At
l east t he advocat es are. And - - and what we woul d l ook
t o i s once - - we' r e l ooki ng at t hi s ever y year , we' r e
l ooki ng at i t caref ul l y. And once we r each t hat poi nt ,
of cour se, we' r e goi ng t o st op.50
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But we al so t ake - -
J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Mr . - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . Gar r e. Mr . Gar r e.
J USTI CE SCALI A: Some of t he st uf f t hat
Gr ut t er says - - some of t he st uf f t hat Gr ut t er says you
agr ee wi t h, some of t he st uf f t hat i t says you don' t
agr ee wi t h.
MR. GARRE: Wel l , I don' t know t hat I ' ve
di sagr eed wi t h anyt hi ng i t sai d. I t - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . Gar r e, bef or e your
t i me i s - - r uns out , t he ot her poi nt t hat I ' d l i ke you
t o answer i s t he ar gument based on Par ent s I nvol ved,
t hat t he game i s j ust t oo smal l t o war r ant usi ng a
raci al cr i t er i a.
MR. GARRE: Your Honor - -
J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Once you have t he
10 per cent , you don' t need mor e. So how do you answer
t he ar gument of i t bei ng t oo smal l ?
MR. GARRE: Fi r st I ' d poi nt t o my f r i end' s
own concessi ons, t hat t he consi der at i on of r ace has
i ncreased r aci al di ver si t y at Hi spani c and hel ps wi t h
mi nor i t y enr ol l ment . That ' s on page 138 of t he J oi nt
Appendi x.
Secondl y, I ' d poi nt t o t he f act t hat Af r i can
Amer i can and Hi spani cs' admi ssi ons di d i ncr ease.51
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Af r i can Amer i can admi ssi ons doubl ed f r om t he per i od of
2002 t o 2004. So t hi s has had a r eal i mpor t ant i mpact
on di ver si t y at t he Uni ver si t y of Texas.
J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , i n t er ms of di ver si t y,
how do you j ust i f y l umpi ng t oget her al l Asi an Amer i cans?
Do you t hi nk - - do you have a cr i t i cal mass of Fi l i pi no
Amer i cans? Cambodi an Amer i cans - -
MR. GARRE: Your Honor - -
J USTI CE ALI TO: - - Cambodi an Amer i cans?
MR. GARRE: - - t he common f orm t hat ' s used
has Asi an Amer i can, but al so, next t o t hat , has a f or m
t hat says count r y of or i gi n wher e t hat can be spel l ed
out .
J USTI CE ALI TO: But do you have a cr i t i cal
mass as t o al l t he subgr oups t hat f al l wi t hi n t hi s
enor mous gr oup of Asi an Amer i cans?
MR. GARRE: Your Honor , we' ve l ooked t o
whether or not we have a cr i t i cal mass of
under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es, whi ch i s pr eci sel y what t he
Gr ut t er deci si on